Talk:References to Historical Figures in Turtledove's Work
Story Character Categories Previously I had mentioned that we should keep the character categories for those articles whose sub-sections had been moved here. See Talk:Stephen Douglas#Deletion for more on that. I see that TR has removed them during the latest batch of changes. I assume that was an oversight but want to see if there is any more thoughts on the matter. I do wish to point out that for those who are only redirects, the character cat(s) remain. ML4E (talk) 17:17, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :I'm inclined to remove and leave the "See Also" sections. TR (talk) 17:23, August 20, 2016 (UTC) :My reasoning is to make it easy for people looking in the story cats but it might not be obvious for them to look at the "See Also". Maybe back to the individual story redirects as I previously suggested. Or not. I don't have strong feelings on it. ML4E (talk) 17:38, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::I'm tempted to do the story redirect, but then I think we'd simply sow confusion--why are categorizing these redirects, but not redirects for the substantial characters? I don't know, I don't see a completely satisfying resolution to the issue. TR (talk) 18:52, August 20, 2016 (UTC) ::Because the substantial articles appear directly rather than as a redirect. For instance, the "Charles Coughlin" article would appear in the Joe Steele Characters cat while "Charles Coughlin (Worldwar)" as a redirect to here would appear in the WW characters cat. In addition, the redirect would show in italics indicating to an experienced user that it is a redirect and so unlikely to be a major appearance. ML4E (talk) 18:08, August 21, 2016 (UTC) New Issue I have noticed that over the last few months Jonathan has been adding story character cats to historical figures who have a "See Also" reference, since their character templates would have been removed along with the auto-generation, while TR has been deleting them. Which do we want to standardize on? Personally, I think it useful for the user to include in the story characters cat historicals who have a reference, either via the article or by the redirect method mentioned above. What does everyone else think? ML4E (talk) 20:47, March 4, 2018 (UTC) :I prefer to not cat, obviously. For example, a person looks at Woodrow Wilson, sees JS Characters, then sees absolutely no subsection for JS, that person's probably going to delete it anyway. Conversely, if a person follows Wilson from the JS Characters cat, it's not immediately clear that Wilson is categorized purely on the basis of the historical references. TR (talk) 22:45, March 4, 2018 (UTC) :It occurs to me that we could make a redirect of the form "Woodrow Wilson (Minor References)" and catalog it in the particular story char cats he is referred to. We then have "Woodrow Wilson" cated only in those stories his article has a sub-section. ML4E (talk) 17:38, March 5, 2018 (UTC) ::That could work. I'd be willing to give it a try. TR (talk) 17:47, March 5, 2018 (UTC) Additional Popes in "Under St. Peter's" In USP, Pope Benedict XVI reflects that he won't have as long a reign as Pope John Paul II, but John XXIII showed you didn't need a long reign to make your mark.(We Install and Other Stories, p. 249.) On page 253, on his way to the Order of the Pipistrelle's hidden chamber, Benedict passes the tombs of Innocent VIII and Pius X.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 17:56, August 1, 2016 (UTC) :They are just name-checked so I don't think they need sub-sections here. Readers will just think "a couple of dead popes" and don't need any other information. ML4E (talk) 17:55, August 3, 2016 (UTC) ::I think the reference to John 23 is a mildly interesting character moment for B16, but not worth a complete J23 page. I'm not going to argue for the list of tombs.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 06:17, August 4, 2016 (UTC) :::Also, at one point, B16 is thinking about a reporter's apparently surprised statement that "the new Pope is named after a previous one", and is thinks to himself that the reporter should have figured out he (B16) is named after not just one, but 15 previous Popes. He thinks something like "what did he think the 16 after the name meant." Maybe this could justify a ref subarticle on Benedict XV.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:10, August 4, 2016 (UTC) ::::It seems like it would be a reference to B 1-15 if we really wanted to stretch it. And no, I don't see any point in stretching it. TR (talk) 20:33, August 4, 2016 (UTC) Locked page I have a lot of legitimate passages from HT works that I'd like to submit here.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 05:55, October 7, 2016 (UTC) :While Jonathan has added some useful references, he has unilaterally started adding individuals who we have not yet agreed to change. I have therefore increased the protection once more. Jonathan should use the article(s) talk page(s) rather than changing things. If he promises to not do this in future, then maybe we can unlock the page since he has correctly added a few minor historical references. ML4E (talk) 16:23, October 15, 2016 (UTC) Henri Pirenne Henri Pirenne is probably more appropriate to be moved to Literary Allusions in Turtledove's Work rather than hist refs.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:00, October 10, 2016 (UTC) :He is a historian not a literary figure. Should stay where it is. ML4E (talk) 16:48, October 11, 2016 (UTC) James Longstreet *"In The Hot War: Fallout, Rolf Mehlen also comments on the Ivans being as sensitive about their flanks as virgins. Given that Mehlen is not American and doesn't seem especially educated, it's a safe bet that he, too, is ignorant of the quote's source." The way Rolf says it, it is not at all like a quote but as though it is a notion he came up with himself. This is Turtledove being twee rather than directly quoting Longstreet. Suggestions on changes in wording would be appreciated. ML4E (talk) 17:22, October 11, 2016 (UTC) :It could be something that Rolf heard some educated Nazi mucky muck say, and it imprinted into his subconscious, so he comes up with a previously existing saying without being conscious that he's plagiarizing. If HT had Conan say it in Whatever BC, it would be twee, but since Longstreet's life is unchanged in THW universe, the quote still traces back to Longstreet.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 20:44, October 11, 2016 (UTC) :::Its not presented that way and I do not think it should be stated as if it were. A specific example where it cannot be subconscious memory is Jeremiah Stafford repeating Lincoln's line about borrowing the Atlantean Army if Colonel Balthasar Sinapis isn't using it. Stafford's thoughts of Augustus' line after the disaster in the Green Ridge Mountains "Consul Stafford, give back my Army!" are a direct quote. Precedence for Turtledove being twee rather than direct quotes are shown by the two statements. ML4E (talk) 17:33, October 13, 2016 (UTC) ::If you're going to play that game, you might as well suggest that Longstreet subconsciously paraphrased something he'd picked up from some long-forgotten source himself, and that it's turtles all the way down. ::However, as Rolf is a fictional character, he's had no experiences beyond those which the author chooses to portray or allude to in the text. So the assumption that he met some Longstreet-reading mucky muck in his non-existent past is entirely baseless. Turtle Fan (talk) 23:00, October 11, 2016 (UTC) :::Any suggestions on how to change the wording? ML4E (talk) 17:33, October 13, 2016 (UTC) ::::I'll try to think of something, though I'm not certain it needs to be said at all. Sometimes these things are so subtle that calling them out only serves to annoy. Turtle Fan (talk) 21:53, October 13, 2016 (UTC) ::::Well, my original entry was only to note Rolf made the comment about green troops being nervous about their flanks without going into how he came up with the phrase. Maybe reverting to that would be best. ML4E (talk) 15:46, October 15, 2016 (UTC) Out of universe refs Out of universe refs are already common on Musical References in Turtledove's Work and Literary Allusions in Turtledove's Work, so I think they are suitable here. For instance, the Beatles ref list has a character in The War That Came Early just happening to recite lines from a Beatles song, a few years before any Beatles were born. If one character paraphrases a famous Abraham Lincoln quote in a timeline where Lincoln never existed, or in a quasi medieval fantasy setting, I think that counts as a hist ref, even if it's not such in universe. And I think the historical analogs that are the basis for fictional characters are interesting and worthy enough for this page.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 19:17, October 16, 2016 (UTC) :I assume this is in reference to Blair and Waldheim. Both Charlie Lynton and Kurt Haldweim both have lit comms AND we have a Parallelism in In The Presence of Mine Enemies page. Listing that info for a third time here is just a redundancy. TR (talk) 19:48, October 16, 2016 (UTC) Assassins and Other Rif-raf Jonathan appears to be proposing that four unnamed assassins be added to the Hist Ref file. I think that is not needed. The relevant passage is one paragraph on page 273 of Bombs Away where Truman is musing about the probable ineffectiveness of the Secret Service when they rushed past him at LAX to guard against possible assassins among a group of reporters. None of these individuals are named so users of this wiki would have no way of keying in on them. It might be marginally useful to include a paragraph on this in the OTL Truman and Roosevelt articles (naming the individual assassins) for those interested but I see no useful purpose in including them here. Likewise, the Mayor of Chicago, who was killed in the FDR attempt, is unnamed so a subsection here serves no purpose. A William McKinley sub-section might be warranted for the purposes of outlining his murder, but Czolgosz needs to only be named there and no separate subsection created for him. However, I am not convinced even the three presidential additions are necessary. This is a wiki on the works of Turtledove not the Wikipedia. Anyone interested in more details can Google that but including superfluous info that Turtledove does not include or need for his story is beyond the purpose of this wiki. Likewise, I have marked Aaron Burr‎ for deletion since his name is a throw-away line with no significance to the reader of Turtledove's works. If anyone is interested, they can Google him but any information gleaned will not increase the appreciation of the story. ML4E (talk) 18:55, October 17, 2016 (UTC) :I'm more and more inclined to agree with ML4E. At some point, the Historical References page is going to become unwieldy and full of minutiae. ::Yes, I have some concerns in that area too. Turtle Fan (talk) 22:51, October 17, 2016 (UTC) :We once broached the idea of a "Historical Events" type page. That might make a better fit for these sorts of references, if that was the route we wanted to go. TR (talk) 19:06, October 17, 2016 (UTC) Anything you want to say to defend adding them here Jonathan? ML4E (talk) 18:00, October 18, 2016 (UTC) :Collazo and Torresola are a colorful recent experience of Truman. The others are useful because they make clear who the unnamed figures in the novel are.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:44, October 28, 2016 (UTC) ::You do not address my point above that they are unnamed and so a user of this wiki will have no way of searching for them here. Instead, anyone having an interest in this historical, unchanged event should and would Google "Truman assassination" and get this as the first result. Likewise Googling "FDR assassination" gets the Giuseppe Zangara Wikipedia article and "Mckinley assassination" gets us this. The purpose of this wiki is to document Turtledove's work not minor historical references he may make. If Turtledove had devoted several paragraphs to recreating the attempted assassination of Truman, then yes but a throw-away line, no. Anyone interested can get much more information by Googling other, more detailed sources. ML4E (talk) 16:51, October 29, 2016 (UTC) John of Brittany, Earl of Richmond The picture of John of Brittany's coat of arms should be included in his section because that's what his reference in "Clash of Arms" focuses on.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 05:46, October 18, 2016 (UTC) :Agreed and done. ML4E (talk) John Stubbs When Philip Stubbes refuses to repent before being burned by the Inquisition, he says "Elizabeth cut off my brother's hand for speaking the truth." This is a fleeting reference to the behanding of John Stubbs, who might or might not have been Stubbes' brother. The Stubbs guy's bio is worth a look, if only because of how bizarre it is.--Eljuma (talk) 16:53, October 28, 2016 (UTC) :This might be worth investigating.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 22:22, May 22, 2017 (UTC) ::I agree. Let's add John Stubbs. TR (talk) 22:24, May 22, 2017 (UTC) Photos Did we want to add these back in? We don't have to have pithy little comments, just post the pics we already have. TR (talk) 04:00, November 8, 2016 (UTC) :I guess. But if we're saying these people aren't worth articles, are they worth illustrating even so? Turtle Fan (talk) 04:53, November 8, 2016 (UTC) :I'm not sure we need any photos unless they illustrate something e.g. Franz Joseph's muttonchops (pithy comments optional). Off hand, maybe Leonid Brezhnev to illustrate his distinctive eyebrows. So it would be photos for those whose physical attributes are significant to the story (e.g. French chippie falling out of her clothes if we move her.) ML4E (talk) 18:56, November 9, 2016 (UTC) Sections needing improvement There are plenty of subsections on this page with misspellings, incomplete titles, bad punctuation, etcetera, that need fixing.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 07:15, November 27, 2016 (UTC) :I don't see much of a much but will take the next few days to personally go through the list. You have made this claim in the past but then used the opportunity to make meaningless changes instead. However, if there is anything in particular, please note it here and I will edit it. ML4E (talk) 21:54, November 27, 2016 (UTC) Wilhelm II Wilhelm's section could be improved like this: "In addition to his significant background roles in Turtledove's work, Wilhelm II, German Emperor is a frequent topic of discussion in The War That Came Early. Throughout the series, numerous characters, from all sides, debate the degrees of Wilhelm's character, his competence as a military leader, and his culpability in starting and then losing World War I."JonathanMarkoff (talk) 18:12, December 23, 2016 (UTC) :I do not consider a general statement like this one an improvement on a specific example we currently have. Please provide specific comments by particular characters (with page references) and I will be willing to incorporate that into the sub-section. Provide enough, and what you have proposed might serve as an introductory sentence. ML4E (talk) 21:49, December 23, 2016 (UTC) Nicholas II In addition to his more significant references in Turtledove's work, Tsar Nicholas II of Russia is mentioned in passing on other occasions. In The House of Daniel, American popular wisdom holds that Nicholas (or perhaps his fantasy analog - this point is unclear) was killed by vampires, but no one outside of Soviet borders really knows for certain. JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:40, January 15, 2017 (UTC) Donald Trump Can somebody remove the part about the american election being rigged by putin to get trump elected, because it is biased. I would apritiate that very much thank you. BenGarrisonFan101 (talk) 23:45, February 25 2017 ::You're out of luck. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:19, March 6, 2017 (UTC) :The CIA has presented a damning case that Putin and Russia did act to influence the election in Trump's favor. It is not biased to point out legitimate facts. TR (talk) 02:18, February 26, 2017 ::Oh sure and I bet if the cia said that islands can float in the air you'd believe that to? Come on man, do research yourself, don't listen to what your government tells you to do. Also you exuate Donald Trump with Adolf Hitler witch is absurd. He is nothing like hitler, if anything he is more like mussolini than hitler. ::BenGarrisonFan101 (talk) 22:31 2017-05-22 ::: Wow, 3 months to respond. You must care deeply about this issue. :::I have done the research. It isn't just the CIA, saying this. Your analogy is silly. It is objectively impossible at this time to make islands float in the air. It is however not unheard of for governments of one country to interfere in the running of other governments and the affairs of other countries. (And yes, I am painfully aware of the horrors the US has inflicted on other countries. Doesn't absolve Putin.) ::::What!?!?! You mean Laputa isn't real? ML4E (talk) 16:00, May 23, 2017 (UTC) ::::Wait, don't tell you use the mainstream media as a resource. Dude, the mainstream media is full of lies and misinformation, I thought you just like most other people ine the united states understood this. And yes I do know that a country can manipulte elections to get the one they want in power, but last time I checked the russian hacking was hoax. (Also I'm not defending putin, I'm just saying the trump article isn't accurate) ::::BenGarrisonGan101 (talk) 2017 05 24 08:12 :::::"Fake news," huh? Discredit the source from which you learn the truth because that truth is inconvenient for your bias? Fuck off. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:23, May 24, 2017 (UTC) ::::: Well I'm back just to see what going on for a short while. Funny I remember there being a sentence explaining that I'm fine with truth, and exoposing the mainstream media for their bullshit, guess one of you bastards deleted it to make yourself look good. :::You do know that comparing Trump to Mussolini isn't better than comparing him to Hitler right? TR (talk) 21:55, May 22, 2017 (UTC) :::Well it's much more accurate than what you guys pruposed. :::BenGarrisonFan101 08:13 2017 05 24 ::::Hitler was a good deal more formidable than Trump, to be sure: He had personal courage, had survived deprivation, built a political movement from the ground up, and realized all his achievements as a relatively young man. However, the sheer fact that the office of POTUS is an office of consequence on a scale few can imagine means that a talentless windbag who somehow comes into it is at least as dangerous as Hitler. He's not some harmless laughingstock. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:23, May 24, 2017 (UTC) ::This. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:19, March 6, 2017 (UTC) ::This2 ML4E (talk) 16:00, May 23, 2017 (UTC) :Apparently the moderators are firmly committed to breaking their editorial objectivity for the Trump matter. I think it unnecessary overkill myself.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:08, February 25, 2017 (UTC) ::The alt right seems to think that objectivity means not making the Pussy Grabber look bad. However, the only way to do this is to invent an alternate reality out of whole cloth. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:19, March 6, 2017 (UTC) :This is a wiki dedicated to a writer of fiction, not a news organization. Even so, as stated above, there is ample evidence that yes, Russia fucked around in this election. Reporting it is quite objective. TR (talk) 02:18, February 26, 2017 (UTC) ::And we'll hear nothing of fake news and alternative facts, either. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:19, March 6, 2017 (UTC) James Smithson Discussion in Talk:James Smithson stands as to why this should not be included here either. The Lit. Comm. in Atlantean Museum covers it sufficiently. ML4E (talk) 21:45, March 5, 2017 (UTC) :I was wondering why this suddenly appeared. TR (talk) 21:54, March 5, 2017 (UTC) Sherman and Sheridan Jonathan: See Talk:William Sherman for why your addition of the two is crap and why I once more locked this article. Quit trying to shove in things we have previously discussed and dismissed. ML4E (talk) 17:52, March 6, 2017 (UTC) Alphabetical Division This article seems to be getting a bit unwieldy. Do we want to break it up into A-M and N-Z, or something like that? Turtle Fan (talk) 03:05, March 11, 2017 (UTC) :We probably should. TR (talk) 04:58, March 11, 2017 (UTC) ::As things now stand, A-K and L-Z would get us closest to a 50-50 split. It would also leave us with over ninety entries on each article, and plenty of growth potential, so maybe division into thirds would be more desirable? Turtle Fan (talk) 19:23, March 11, 2017 (UTC) :::I suspect of the project lasts long enough, we'll have plenty of opportunities for splits. For now, I agree three is best. Since 26 does is not evenly divisible by 3, I propose A-I, J-R, and S-Z. TR (talk) 04:03, March 12, 2017 (UTC) ::::For the record, the closest we could get to breaking the current list into even thirds, assuming we don't want a situation where one letter is split between two lists and you have to look to the second letter in the name, is A-G, H-N, and P-Z (there are no O's at this time). That's not to say I object to your proposal, but it never ceases to amaze and amuse me how many more names there are at the beginning of the alphabet than there are the end. Turtle Fan (talk) 09:19, March 12, 2017 (UTC) Donald Trump and Adolf Hitler Why is Donald Trump being compared to Adolf Hitler on this page? I honestly think that's being quite biased. :Please see the section above. After this weekend's events, I'm not seeing any bias in that assessment. TR (talk) 03:27, August 14, 2017 (UTC) : : No more Cox on this page? We may have to remove the Cox from this page. I just checked the short story and he's not mentioned even obliquely. In the first section, the narration just says "Harding - women got the vote for this?" A few paragraphs later, FDR's resumé says that FDR once ran for VP and lost. No real reference to Cox. By contrast, the race between Coolidge and Davis is referenced, and both are name checked.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:29, March 2, 2018 (UTC) :Huh, you're right. He must have been a left-over from early days when we'd create articles on whatever pretext, in this case, a reference to 12 years of Democratic wilderness, Harding, and FDR's VP run. I agree he should be removed--BUT LET EVERYONE ELSE WEIGH IN. TR (talk) 16:58, March 2, 2018 (UTC) :I did reread the short story when the novel came out but I don't recall the reference (or more correctly the non-reference). I take it the story says the Democrats were smarting over Harding's resounding victory rather Cox's crushing defeat? If so, then the Harding reference in this article would have to be changed as well. If the situation is as Jonathan says, then yes the Cox reference needs to be removed. ML4E (talk) 20:35, March 2, 2018 (UTC) ::The Harding reference is as Jonathan recounts. TR (talk) 21:38, March 2, 2018 (UTC) Frederick the Great and Czar additions? On reviewing HFR, I found a scene where Schlieffen reflects on how the Tsarina Elizabeth's death and the rise of Peter III saved Frederick during the war. I was in the process of creating a Frederick subsection here, with additional links to Elizabeth and Peter III, also to be placed here, but I thought I'd ask before I did it. The proposed section: "In addition to his contemporary role in Opening Atlantis, Frederick II of Prussia, the Great is referenced in a number of Turtledove's works, usually in the context of his military genius the wars he fought. For example, in How Few Remain, during a conversation with William Rosecrans, Alfred von Schlieffen remembers that Frederick's was in a dire situation during the Seven Years' War until the timely death of the Tsarina and the ascension of a successor who favored Frederick and withdrew Russia from the war.How Few Remain, pg. 57, mmp." Comments or objections? TR (talk) 16:05, May 26, 2018 (UTC) :Fine with me, though "military genius the wars he fought" seems to be missing a preposition. I'm also generally not that fond of calling someone a genius in passing without being prepared to justify it, but that's neither here nor there. Turtle Fan (talk) 01:37, May 28, 2018 (UTC) ::Yeah, I'll punch that stuff up. TR (talk) 03:36, May 28, 2018 (UTC) Jose Antonio Saucedo I wonder if, by virtue of being a high political rank in the microcosm where the story is set, he should be an article.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 10:20, July 3, 2018 (UTC) :He doesn't appear, he's just discussed the one time in the one passage. The impact of the changes in the rebellion on his life aren't discussed in any way. It's just not worth the article. TR (talk) 14:07, July 3, 2018 (UTC) :Indeed it's not. Though I've got a sinking feeling Jonathan will ignore consensus and do it anyway. Turtle Fan (talk) 21:41, July 3, 2018 (UTC) James Longstreet It occurs to me that the Longstreet section here isn't needed, since it's just listing variations of the same quote. Going by the examples of famous quotes from Christopher Marlowe and Otto von Bismarck, there could instead be a lit comm added to the start of Longstreet's own article: "Longstreet is widely reported to have declared that 'raw troops are as sensitive about their flanks as a virgin,' or words to that effect. Variations of this statement are recited by characters in numerous Harry Turtledove timelines. Sometimes this is done with in-universe acknowledge of Longstreet, but more often it is presented as the character's original thoughts."JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:41, July 6, 2018 (UTC) :Okay. I agree. And thanks for proposing it instead of just doing it. Let's see what the others have to say. Turtle Fan (talk) 21:56, July 6, 2018 (UTC) :That works for me. I do recommend the references be kept in the same way they are in the Marlowe Lit. Comm. ML4E (talk) 22:25, July 6, 2018 (UTC) ::I agree. TR (talk) 23:33, July 6, 2018 (UTC) David Kalakaua In ''Days of Infamy'' chapter XV, it is stated that Kalakaua's 1883 coronation served as the model for Stanley Owana Laanui's 1942 ceremony.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 09:37, January 4, 2019 (UTC) :There we go, problem solved. ML4E (talk) 20:35, January 4, 2019 (UTC) James Henry Hammond In The Guns of the South, p. 253, Jeff Davis recites quotes from a speech by this asshole, to make a theme-relevant insight about the issue of slavery. Hammond is about to die of natural causes by this point in the story, and the discussion is of stuff he said in OTL, so he is worth a hist ref, not an article.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 11:07, January 18, 2019 (UTC) :Wow. I can't say I'd ever heard of him before (well, I read GotS, but I don't remember the relevant passage). I prosecute people like this asshole. Sadly, people like him also get to be POTUS even in the 21st century. TR (talk) 17:03, January 18, 2019 (UTC) ::Indeed. The presidency is downright disreputable these days. How will we ever recruit anyone to run for it in the future? Turtle Fan (talk) 00:03, January 19, 2019 (UTC) :Looking at his Wikipedia page, I do recall the quote on the "mudsill of society" and subsequent discussion within the novel. I agree this should be a historical reference. ML4E (talk) 21:27, January 18, 2019 (UTC) ::I also recalled this when reminded of it. Turtle Fan (talk) 00:03, January 19, 2019 (UTC) :::Here's the quote, from when Davis is responding to Judah Benjamin's news that England and France are only grudgingly recognizing the CSA: „President Davis said, "The 'free' factory worker in Manchester or Paris- yes, in Boston as well- is free only to starve. As Mr. Hammond from South Carolina put it so pungently in the chambers of the U. S. Senate a few years ago, every society rests upon a mudsill of brute labor, from which the edifice of civilization arises. We are but more open and honest about the nature of our mudsill than other nations, which gladly exploit a worker's labor but, when he can no longer provide it, cast him aside like a used sheet of foolscap."“ :::Lee thinks, but does not say, that an abolitionist would not find this a convincing argument pro slavery.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:06, January 19, 2019 (UTC) ::::Huh, this is interesting. What do we want to do with him?Matthew Babe Stevenson (talk) 19:17, November 25, 2019 (UTC) Leonidas Polk "In addition to Leonidas Polk's more substantial role in The Guns of the South..." He doesn't have a substantial role, just a line confirming that he avoided his OTL death.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 09:31, January 19, 2019 (UTC) Joseph Evan Davis Joseph Evan Davis (April 18, 1859 - April 30, 1864) is confirmed on The Guns of the South, p. 369, as having his OTL accidental blunt force trauma death after the POD. I don't know whether that merits a hist ref.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 09:38, January 19, 2019 (UTC) :I recall a comment during one of Lee's Presidential levees that he was pleased to see Varina Davis no longer wearing black in morning over her son's death. (Probably the page referenced, haven't had a chance to look it up.) A line to that effect in her GotS sub-section would likely address this. ML4E (talk) 16:10, January 19, 2019 (UTC) ::Let me take this occasion to recommend Charles Frazier's Varina. It's wonderful to read a novel with a Confederate heroine that so adamantly rejects Lost Cause revisionism. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:11, January 20, 2019 (UTC) Franz Mesmer On The United States of Atlantis, p. 59, Victor Radcliff has a thought about "that French charlatan, Mesmer." This scene is set in 1775, the French phase of Mesmer's career did not begin until 1778. While HT may have goofed on the timeline, I think we can call this a quirky butterfly effect.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 05:12, January 30, 2019 (UTC) :Great. Turtle Fan (talk) 03:25, January 31, 2019 (UTC) Aaron Burr I wonder if a reference in Joe Steele would justify a Burr section. On p. 117, when asked to attend the execution of the Supreme Court Four (Joe Steele), Charlie Sullivan realizes the historical significance of the matter and thinks that "not even Aaron Burr had been convicted of treason." This gives insight into just how far off the gloves have come under Steele's rule.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:48, March 14, 2019 (UTC) :Nope. No insight given. No relevance. ML4E (talk) 18:31, March 20, 2019 (UTC) Christian Friedrich Schönbein In The Guns of the South, Robert Finney suggests using the then-living Schonbein's methods to transform CSA cotton into a weapon, and Lee thinks about this for a bit.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:53, March 14, 2019 (UTC) :Once again you want to create an article or reference to an irrelevant namedrop. The important thing is the Nitrocellulose not a person who does nothing in the story. This isn't quite as bad as the article you created for Paul Kruger rather than for the relevant Krugerrand but its close. Again, I ask you to think about what is relevant to the works of Harry Turtledove and whether the reference has any significance. ML4E (talk) 18:30, March 20, 2019 (UTC) Pope Gregory I In "Unholy Trinity", Gregory I's doctrine about ecclesiastical privileges has become a rallying point for the neo-Catholic "heretics" of northern Europe, and a constant irritation to Orthodox authority in the Byzantine Empire. (AoB, 2018 ed, p. 135.)JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:30, March 22, 2019 (UTC) :Actually, in this case I think an article on Gregory I would be appropriate, given the ramifications throughout the story universe. ML4E (talk) 15:55, March 23, 2019 (UTC) ::Based on Jonathan's description, I agree with ML4E. I haven't read UT yet. TR (talk) 16:01, March 23, 2019 (UTC) :::It's actually a pretty pithy reference, and is merely one of several issues in the schism. It's not an issue of Aquinas-versus-Ghazzali importance. Gregory's life does not seem to have deviated from OTL.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 04:02, March 24, 2019 (UTC)